Transcript: This is a conversation with Jan and her daughter, Tammi.  

Jan: Hi, welcome to the Us And Kids Podcast. I am your host, Jan Talen. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, a wife, a mom, and a grandma. And this Us And Kids podcast is abou  how to be married forever while you parent together. You and I know - this is not an easy task, so I always encourage you to subscribe to Us And Kids in your favorite podcasting app.

I'm glad you're here because it's hard work to make your marriage and your home fulfilling and very good, but it is possible. And with that, we are doing another Mom to Mom Moment, so that you can hear about everyday struggles that moms and dads have and how they work together to overcome that struggle in a way that was good for their marriage, as well as good for their kiddo.

So today I would like you to welcome my guest, Tammi VanDrunen. She is my daughter. And because of that, of course, I think she's awesome, and multitalented! Tammi, would you tell us a little bit about yourself and a little bit about the part of your parenting journey that you're willing to share with us today?

Tammi: Sure. My name is Tammy VanDrunen, and I am a children's pastor and I dabble in spiritual direction, and in those sorts of things. My husband and I live far away from our family, with our two kids, but halfway across the country from everyone else. And so in a lot of ways, we make decisions,and process without the aid of some of the people that we consider wiser than us. Today, I am going to tell you a little bit about how we decided that my son, Isaac needed some therapy. And how we came to that decision, how Phil and I did that together. 

Jan: So how did you know that what Isaac was doing, how he was behaving or interacting was bigger than sort of normal kids stuff and maybe a little background.
How old is Isaac? And when did you start to feel some angst about what's going on? When did you realize that something didn’t seem right? That behavior and emotions were not evening out the way you wanted it to?

Tammi: So this started, well, Isaac has always been a very intense kid. He is now eight. This started when I think Isaac was going into second grade, but he has always been a very intense kid.  His play is always very intense, kind of hard to keep up with. A lot of ways I would stay stereotypical play for boys. Lots of adventures and fighting and battles and those sorts of things, but oftentimes significantly more long lasting and just more prolonged than most kids would be able to play in such an intense way. He doesn't really have the ebb and flow to his play than a lot of other kids do. 

Jan: Tell me a little bit about his balance of laughter and joy to intense and serious. What, what was that balance like? What did you notice? 

Tammi: He was, he was moving much more into the deeper, much more intense play all the time  and less joy. Everything was very serious. Less ability to laugh or to take things with a grain of salt or anything like that. Or even to understand that his play wasn't actually reality. So we started to see some of those sorts of things. 

Jan: So in that you're sort of saying you couldn't really get him to transition to a lighter space.  Once he started to go intense, that just sort of seemed to build, and it was very hard to move him back into a lighter space or into a more playful one. Maybe more reality-based space.

Tammi:Yeah. Just a place where he could play without it becoming something really intense. So even if you tried to pull him back into something that was a lighter mood of play, he would integrate his darker, harder, more intense play back into that.  Okay. The lighter play. 

Jan: Did Phil notice the same thing?

Tammi: Yes. Uh, yeah, he did. And neither one of us really knew what to do with it. Like I said, in a lot of ways he's been doing this since he was two or three. It just intensified going into the second grade. And for some perspective, going into second grade was also at the start of COVID.
Um, and so he had been out of school. He had been doing school at home since March of that year. And really, we started noticing things, getting harder and harder, you know, June and July. Okay. Okay. 

Jan: How did you decide that maybe you needed some other, somebody else's eyes or ears on Isaac and sort of your family situation?  How did you decide you needed somebody else? And then how did you pick an appropriate person to help you with this part of the journey?

Tammi: I was actually doing some schooling on children's ministry. And I was reading a book by a lady. Her name is Lacey Borgo, called Spiritual Conversations with Children.

And that book said something about that play is the language of children. And if you can learn to read their play, you can understand what is going on with your child. Actually I was in Michigan visiting, and sitting on a beach chair, watching him play with his cousins at the lake, and watching him play. I set down my book and watched his play.
And it just became very clear. Oh, he is trying to tell me he is not okay. Oh. And it just became crystal clear at that point in time that one, he was not okay, and two, I did not have the tool to know how to deal with that.

Jan: Can you define, “He was not okay?”  What in his play, is that something you can narrow in on, that said he is not okay. Often this happens sort of in your mama's heart.
Is there something in a visual place that maybe another mom or dad would hear and go, oh, that is happening for us too?

Tammi: A lot of his play that summer was “I am making everyone safe. I can make everyone safe. I am everyone's defender. No one can protect the world except me.”  And so that's what made it really obvious to me that he wasn't okay. His play was fine. His play was doing exactly what it was supposed to do as he was trying to communicate, um, to me that he wasn't. Okay. 

Jan: And that his world wasn't okay. That his world felt very safe and he had to be sort of the savior of whatever arena of his that he had.

Tammi: Yeah. His world did not feel safe. And even though he has a very consistent home, he has very consistent parents, very consistent bedtime. We were doing all of the structures and the rhythms that you were supposed to do to help your children feel safe through the craziness that COVID did to all of our lives that early year.  He still was feeling all of it. And it was upsetting all of the little amount of stability he felt the world had.

Jan: So you've had this sort of heart-rReality of his play is telling you that he's not okay. What then? How, what was your next step besides having  just wanting to sit and cry and feel very sad for Isaac?   That’s what I would want to do!

Tammi: Actually for me, it wasn't just feeling sad or wanting to cry. It was like this deep relief of why? Wondering why do you keep doing this? Why do you keep playing like this? Why can't you calm down and chill out?  Oh, because you're trying to tell me something that's not okay!

Jan: This is a very different way of listening to your kids instead of just observing. Taking in all of that nonverbal cues and even his verbal cues saying there's a message in these clues.  And now I know I can have hope.

Tammi:. Yes. For me, it was actually a very hopeful thing to read and a very hopeful thing to be able to look and say, oh, I know what you're doing and I know I can help.

Jan: Okay. So all of a sudden you had a burst of confidence. Yes. Ah, oh, that feels better than just spinning your wheels. What do we do? What do we do? Maybe tomorrow will be better.

Tammi: Yes. And honestly kind of feeling something like shame about the way he played. I know that this isn’t acceptable play for everyone else, but this is just how Isaac plays.

And I don't know how else to do this. And so it was actually very freeing.  The shame went away, that the frustration went away because it was like, oh, like, there's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with me. I just have to learn how to listen to your language. And then we walk through it together and we find the new tools that we need.  I had a conversation with Phil about this too. 

Jan: Just listening to this good parenting, folks! She talked with her husband, Phil. She took the next step.  Go on, Tammi. 

Tammi: And I said, I think Isaac's not okay. I think this is why I think this. And I think we need to look into play therapists. And so 

Jan: Phil rolled his eyes. Phil said, we can't afford this. Phil said, you gotta be kidding me. I'm not bringing my kid to therapy. I'm not a crazy parent. 

Tammi: Yeah. None of those things really. There's definitely some hesitation. We are not a high-income family. Play therapy is expensive for a lot of people. We do not have insurance that covers  therapy. And so there was definitely hesitation around the money piece, but also looking forward:  Okay, well, let's just explore this next step. Let's see if it's a step that we should take. And if we can take that step.  Phil is really good at being curious with me. And so there was definitely, there was some hesitation, there was some feeling in me of like, maybe he doesn't understand and he doesn't feel the urgency.

Like I do all of a sudden I'm why can't you catch up with me? But we thankfully had two or three weeks to talk about it, um, and process. And we actually left our kids with their grandparents for a week and a half and we went home and they got some extra grandparent time, but that gave Phil a nice,  extra space that we don't normally have to really process and decide what our next steps were going to be together.  And that was, that was really helpful.

Jan: Pause for just a minute. Just want to make sure that my listeners are catching this. There's a curious place that helps us explore what's the best next step. And that's part of what you and Phil did. It sort of helped you stay somewhat in sync with each other.

And you didn't rush. We know not all situations don't have pressure to go, go, go. But Tammy and Phil felt like they had time to think it through and make a good decision. And they took good energy to do that. 

Tammi:And in fact, so we started looking for therapists. We don't live in a huge metropolis and so play therapists, who are generally hard to come by anyways, are harder to come by in our town.

And so I just, I lucked out. You can look at Psychology Today. That's where I started. Psychology Today has a really great way to filter therapists. So that's where I started. And unfortunately, a lot of the therapists in play therapists in my area - And I don't know if it's true across the country or across the world -but a lot of the play therapists in my area focus on deep trauma kids. So kids who have really been abused or, you know, severely affected.

Like I said, at the beginning, we are a very stable home, very predictable. I'm very predictable. Bedtimes are predictable. School days are predictable.  Meals are predictable. He's not from a traumatic background. And so somebody who has the expectation of him coming in  with deep trauma will start off on the wrong foot. So we ended up finding a therapist about an hour away from us, whose website advertised that some kids just have hard periods of life and they just need someone to walk through and give them some new tools. And that's what we're here to do. And she said, you know, we do this as a 12 week process and then he'll be done and you can move on and he will be better. And it turned out that wasn't quite the case for Isaac, but she did do and does do a great job of approaching it just as you're fine.

You're all fine. He's fine. We're fine. And, um, and nothing about his plays, scary to her. And so she's lovely.
We did interview a couple of other therapists along the way before we landed with Jenny, our therapist. 
When we could go to see Jenny we would just make a date of it, Isaac and I would drive out and listen to audiobooks together.

And then on the way home, we would stop at the grocery store and pick up a special snack for the rest of our ride home, because it was like past dinner time. And I was not going to make it the hour ride home through cornfields and stay awake if I was not eating something. And so Isaac and I would each get a special snack for the ride home and listen to the rest of our audiobook.

And it just became a weekly routine for us for a few months. I would say I read that book in July. We did not find and start with Jenny until October. So as mom said, like we took our time, we interviewed. She's in a totally different city, so she did a video call with us and she did a video call with Isaac.

We involved Isaac in the process when he came home from his grandparents, we said, I think you might need a therapist. What do you think about going to a play therapist? And, his immediate answer was yes! And so I was like, oh, well then I know we are on the right path,

I was surprised that he was that desperate, that he had been trying and trying to communicate and I had missed it. And that now I had heard it and the relief that he felt.

Jan: So, my notes to mom and dad's here are that when you hit it dead on with your kiddos, they probably have language or look that will make it very clear to you that you are right on.

And if you're not right on, keep working towards it. And even if it's not a total connection, work towards it and keep trying things until you find something that clicks because your kiddo wants your help. They can't do this themselves. And so your efforts are worth the effort, not just for your kiddo, but for your family life and for your marriage life.

That's what I like about how Tammy and Phil did this is -with such patient persistence. And saying, we got to, have to, find the right person as best we can. And then Tammy is saying, now I have to make this work around supper, time and tiredness and a long drive. And the planning that she went into that paid off and I agree, you're tired.

And this is one more thing. And Tammy signed up for 12 weeks. Was it worth 12 weeks? 

Tammi: Yes. And we saw immediate improvement within the first two or three weeks. The way our play therapist explains it is that play therapy actually gets underneath the kids' consciousness and works on their subconscious level. And so they do not have to deal with all of the things that grownups have to deal with in therapy to get past your defenses, to actually deal with what's really going on. Play plays at a subconscious level. And so you can deal with what's going on immediately. You don't have to get through any defenses immediately.

I mean, the next morning as we were, and I'm not saying this is what happened to everybody, but the next morning as he was getting ready for. For school, he was just a different child. He was, he was calm. He was focused. He was able to get his things done. And now when he's not like that, I call it that he has his anxiety blanket on.

And it's like, you can't see the real child because he is covered in anxiety. Um, and, and so it's a good indication to us to slow down and to listen and to figure out what's going on for them. Which often, you know, he'll be like nothing, nothing's going on until we take him away from activity. And we just say, okay, we notice these are the things we're noticing when you're ready to talk to us about it.

We are ready to listen. 

Jan: So what I like here is that you're saying that it's not just play therapy, but it's also your interaction, your attention in the ongoing process because obviously October was quite some time ago. Right? Okay. We've moved forward and you're saying some of the ongoing care is paying attention well 

Tammi: So we've done the year plus. Yes. Your ongoing care is continuing to pay attention to Isaac and we knew, see things ramp up or go dark. You can pull him aside instead of parenting him meanly in the kitchen amongst everybody, you can just pause this and go over here, he and I are going to just talk in a very safe, calm way.

And for Isaac, Isaac, particularly with his parents and not really with anyone else, loves to be held very, very close, which is different from my other child. And so he needs to be held really close and be told he's okay. And then he felt safe  before his brain honestly can slow down enough to catch up with what's really going on in his body.

Jan: So, you know, that's so true for us as adults as well. We just don't pay much attention to it, but we need to feel safe and we're fairly good at lying to ourselves often. I'll be fine. I'll be fine. I'll be fine. And just sort of plow our way through it often then with a few regrets where I wished I would have slowed myself and anxiety down. 

And your method of parenting is saying, we're going to pull him aside and make sure that he is calm and safe, then he can reset his brain. But we have to have that even flow of oxygen in order to get him to reset so he can get the things done and actually get off to school. 

Tammi: And I would say it's not, it's not a linear process for us, right?

It's been an up and down; back and forth. In fact,  he is in fact going back to therapy simply because we have had several large changes in our family and scary things have happened in the last year, since he's finished therapy. And so we need a reset. He needs a place to process all of those big, hard things that have happened.

And so we did a session before Christmas. Once again, just the next morning was just magical. There's my gentle son. Again, he has returned. It's lovely. One of the things that Phil and I have learned in our marriage, and that has been transferred to the way that we parent, is that therapy is not scary. Therapy is not anything to be ashamed of in therapy is a good tool to use whenever you need it.

And so we figure out ways to afford it. Our first round of therapy, we had several family members help us out. And several people would be able to just contribute financially to make it possible. And, however we could do it for therapy to work. That's what we do when we need it, whether it's for us or for our kids.

Jan: So I hear that there is some sacrificial ness in it, especially for you guys in the financial realm, but probably also in the time realm. You and Phil stay pretty much on the same page about that.  We have to decide: we won't do this, we'll do this instead. I need a hundred and something for therapies.

So, you know, we're going to say no more chips or maybe walk to work, or those shoes are on “postpone until later” list. 

Tammi: Uh, all of those things are really therapy work. But yeah, it's, “Well, I guess we're not saving for that right now.” But the reality is like, yes, we understand it is sacrificed, but it's, short-term sacrifice for long-term payoff.

I mean, our marriage therapy has helped us in leaps and bounds and our children's therapy makes our house more peaceful. It makes our children kinder to each other and to the people around them that makes them more capable of being able to tell us when they're not okay. And so that is true for Isaac. He didn't use to do snuggles with my husband, Phil, before therapy and about six weeks into the process Phil  started receiving hugs from Isaac and asking for hugs. And Phil said, it doesn't matter what else happens. It's worth it because he will snuggle with me now. So. And so yes, financially, time-wise, it is a giant sacrifice for us. Honestly, it is giving up, you know, a full afternoon and evening of getting all their things done to go to therapy and, and it's a financial sacrifice, but it is totally worth it to see the payoff. 

Jan: You know, in the Us And Kids Communication Program, we talk about the DNA method and that D is knowing what a married couple's dreams and desires are. And what I just heard from Phil, is one of his dreams and desires for his family was to be physically connected to his kids as well as emotionally.

And that he was missing that with Isaac, not because there was anything really, I want to say evil. That's not really the right word. But just because Isaac was hesitant in terms of his own mind where it was safe and that switched for him that helped Phil realize a dream and a desire. He had to be physically close to his  son.

This is the kind of work that we often think about and go, do I dare do it? Do I dare do it, TamIy? Was it worth the dare? 

Tammi: Yes for all of us, Isaac recommends therapy to all children. Now

Jan: Now he’s the ambassador of goodwill for families. Is that right? Get yourself a good space! 

Tammi: There has, and I think all my friends could use a play therapist, mom. So even though he doesn't understand how it works or why it works. Uh, he understands that it does work. And that matters to him too.

Jan: That's the only other comment I would give to that is that you found a therapist that really clicked with Isaac and that relationship has been crucial to him just stepping in and going for it.

Tammi: And to be fair, I went to almost all of his therapy sessions with him, which is an unusual thing in play therapy, but it's what Isaac needed. And my therapist was gratefully, you know, willing to bend her rules to see if it was going to work. And it did. And my daughter went to play therapy later and it did not work for her, for me to be in the room.

And so both the therapist and I were wise enough. We're not going to do this part, (of me going into the therapy room with my daughter).. She's just going to hang out with a therapist and I'm going to leave. So, yeah, we have a really excellent therapist who desires to work with our family and desires to do what's best. And that matters.

Like I said, I interviewed several other therapists I've read innumerable amounts of sites and that was the person I clicked with. And she was eager to say that she  would love to work with a child who is mildly violent in their space. This is just the fun kids for me to work with. And that was such a relief to my mom, heart that this, this person was not going to be afraid of my son and the way he plays.

Jan: Yes. Do you have anything that you would say? Like: “I wish I had known this sooner.”
“There were all these clues, but I didn't pick up on them.”
“And if I had known this when he was three or four and a half or something like that, like it's sort of along the signs of it.”
Do you have suggestions where people would say, if you see this or this or this, notice it, don't blow it off. 
And I don't know if you do or don't, I'm just asking. 

Tammi: I don't know that I regret that we waited necessarily, but it did turn out our suspicion is that his trauma does go all the way back to birth and that's what we deal with. And so if I had known that the intensity of his play, when other kids started to sort of move out of emergency play and stuff, wasn't normal, and that the intensity of his play wasn't normal.

But it was okay. You know, it didn't mean that he had a developmental disability or anything. It just meant that he needed some extra love and therapy wise. I would have gotten him in earlier, I think. Um, but I also don't necessarily regret it. I. Sort of is what it is. But I think that now I do life with watching eyes, like I said, I am a children's pastor.
I do watch the kids play pretty carefully and try to read, play. So I would say the more that you can learn how to listen to play, and instead of just kind of writing it off, but really like, listen and not try to like, read between the lines too much, but just pay attention and in your own parents spirit of what is my child trying to tell me in their play.

It's a helpful skill to have. And I wish that I had known that play is the primary language of children before my children were seven and four. Yeah. Yeah. 

Jan: So Tammi, I could hear somebody there think, but her mom's a therapist. How come her mom didn’t help her?

Tammi: It's not my mom's job to be my children's therapist, 

Jan: which I am very grateful.  I want to be their grandma. 

Tammi: But also she's not around us a lot. Like I said, we live halfway across the country. It is her job to be a grandparent and not to be a therapist. And she was. And it wasn't her job to be my therapist,, or my marriage therapist, gratefully, that would have been terrible.

Not because my mom's not a great therapist, she just shouldn't be my therapist as her daughter. That just gets things weird. So I'm glad that we get new perspectives from outside of the family. I think it is really important. And we learn so much when we learn from people who aren't our family.

She did a great job of cheering us on and saying, when I said, I think Isaac might need a play therapist just saying. “You know, I think that might be a wise thing to explore.” And not like “Oh man, I've been waiting three years for you to figure that out.” Instead she  just encouraged us. And just cheering us on. 

You can't learn everything from your parents. Not everything that your parents know professionally  do you get from osmosis, whether your parents are a doctor or a therapist or a teacher or an accountant. They go and do their thing and then they come home and they are your parents.

My mom did a great job of being a parent, giving me lots of emotional skills. But obviously I'm not in her office watching her on a regular basis. You know, it's great to get the podcast because they get a sneak peek into stuff that I wasn't trained on as a child. 

Jan: No, I didn't.

Tammi: Did that answer the therapist's question? 

Jan: Yes. One of the things folks that I wanted to just bring to the highlight for a minute is Tammi talks about the developmental stages of kids. And in that Us And Kids Communication Program, where we teach you communication skills that are not just for your marriage but also for your parenting. It covers both aspects of home life. In one place.
We are often talking about what's happening to your kiddo at this age. And how do you parent into that? And that's part of what Tammi was saying is as I learned to watch the play differently, I could peer it into it differently.

And that was a game changer.
If you're trying and thinking, I've got to figure out how to pay attention to my kids and figure them out better than the Us And Kids Communication Program is a place that will sincerely help you with sorting that out and keeping you and your spouse connected to the talking and figuring it out process too.

Tammi, do you have any other words of encouragement you want to offer to the moms and the dads out there? They're working hard to be excellent parents, just like you guys. Do you have any other words of encouragement to them. 

Tammi: You are not alone. We are many who are out doing our best, and I know you're doing your best.

And so, uh, just keep going, keep finding those tools. Figure out, you don't have a tool to handle the situation, go looking for the tool. Be honest with your kid about it, that you don't know how to handle the situation and remember to laugh at yourself and at the situations, because if we take it too seriously, we lose all the joy of parenting.

Jan: Amen to that. Once again, I want to thank you all for listening and joining in. Remember that you can always check out the website, UsAndKids.com and you'll find more about the Us And Kids Communication Program, as well as all the other podcasts and many other things that will support you and cheer you on so that you really can be married forever while you parent together.

Thanks again for joining.

PS - Here's the printable and the link to the audio is just below.