Transcript: 

Welcome to the Us and Kids Podcast! I am excited to be your host, Jan Talen. I am a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, a wife, a mom, and grandma.  

This Us and Kids podcast is about how to be married forever while you parent together!  You and I know this isn't an easy task. And that's why I encourage you to subscribe to Us and Kids in your favorite podcasting app. If, after this episode, or another one that you listen to you would be inclined to leave a review, that's always helpful to the other people that are wondering what's the best one to listen to. Your feedback is really helpful to them. 

Today my friend, and another marriage professional is joining me. His name is Mark VanDellen.  He knows all about emotional intelligence. Today we are going to talk about how to become more emotionally smart. This impacts our marriages and our parenting in such wonderful ways, when we use it well. So thank you for joining this Us and Kids podcast!  

I want to welcome Mark to the podcast today! He is my friend and professional cohort in keeping marriages healthy.   Mark works courses through his website called The Meaningful Marriage. You will find good stuff in there for refreshing your marriage but also for friends that you might know that are just preparing to get married. He is wise, and he is informative and he is a good teacher. So Mark, glad that you're here with us today, and glad that you know more about emotional intelligence than I do! 

Mark: That might be a stretch!

Jan:  You at least know it a bit differently because I think that you also teach it more directly to workplaces and people who are building teams, is that correct?

Mark: Yeah, yeah I got kind of fascinated with emotional intelligence in the workplace. Usually when we handle conflict in the workplace. A lot of people believe that emotions don't belong in the workplace. That just means we're ignoring them right. And so as I studied emotional intelligence and got certifications and access to assessments and all that sort of stuff it started to really easily map on to couples and relationships and how we do that within our families and in our kind of the most important relationships in our lives.

Jan: So, back that up for a minute because I sort of jumped into too long words without really doing a definition and my listeners know that I love definitions. So, why don't you give us what emotional intelligence is.

Mark: Yeah.  So Daniel Goleman literally wrote the book on it.  So he has a book called Emotional Intelligence and his definition is: it's the capacity for recognizing our own feelings and the feelings of others. So that's like the simple definition.  It's the ability to recognize those feelings and the feelings of others. Then he actually goes into, not only is it recognizing but then how do we manage those and adjust accordingly. So essentially it's not having emotions that's the problem. It's how we manage those emotions. I think, as humans, we've gotten that wrong for a lot of years. We just believe we shouldn't have those emotions or I shouldn't feel this way, when that's usually not the problem.

Jan:  So I'm hearing that it's in part emotional awareness - like just being aware of good, bad or otherwise I feel this. And then knowing what to do with those emotions. Hold them or if I do something with them or experience them for a while.  That kind of thing. Is that right?

Mark:  Yeah and it's hard to obviously make a decision about emotions if we don't first become aware of them. So Goleman basically has a model that breaks down to the two main components. One is like self, and the other is others. So the relationship. Then under each of those two categories, there's two more categories: Awareness and then Management.  So there's self awareness, self management, and then there's others awareness, and others management.  So the assessments that I use measures you in each of those four categories on how well you believe you're responding to these things. 

Jan:  I like that it's so clean in terms of how Goldman talks about it. Maybe I'm jumping the gun but when I hear about emotional awareness for others, I jump into the word empathy. 

Mark:   That is a big piece of it. Goleman  puts that into his model of, when you think about emotional charge, empathy is probably the first thing that comes to mind. And,  he also adds a few other components to it.  It includes empathy, but it also includes things like power,especially in the workplace. The power structure that is there, being aware of some of the "other environmental elements" that might be in the room. This might be like having kids around. We need to be aware of when we're talking to a child that we can understand them but they might not be as able to understand me. We also have to acknowledge like parent to child there is a power structure there as well as  older siblings to younger siblings.  And so, there are other components to that social awareness, the relationship awareness beyond empathy.

Jan:  And so it becomes pretty complex when two adults - the parents - are trying to have a conversation about a schedule or about somebody who dropped the ball somewhere.  The kids around are also becoming emotionally aware of the tension they sense between mom and dad.  Mom and dad have to make choices about how to use their own emotional awareness around those extra ears while communicating with each other.  This may also mean that the parents would be wise to work empathy into their conversation.  This is  especially true when  managing that conflict so that they don't really draw the kids anxiety into it.

Mark:  Yeah, it was really interesting. I've always thought about emotional intelligence from the perspective that we have to understand self and learn to manage self, so that we can then take that into our relationships.  However,  kids are almost the opposite! They're very good at picking up those things from their parents. They can't necessarily label them or they can't necessarily identify what it does inside of them. They become very relationship and socially aware quickly. They're so good at picking up cues. They know dad and mom are upset.  And so they're very aware of that. They're less aware of why it makes their tummy hurt or why they're not hungry or why they want to go to their room.  Helping parents become aware of themselves  first and they can begin modeling it and  training that within their family.

Jan:  I like that! So what you're saying is that as mom and dad become more emotionally aware of themselves and aware of their spouse, then we would like them to also pay close attention to their kid. That's going to play into the whole family dynamic.

Mark: Especially when thinking about the word empathy. As we pay attention to the people around us like our kids.  They may be giving us signals that we're not aware of.  Their emotions can just rise up. they could be happy emotions too. It's not all negative, The meter on our emotions just went up, and we aren't as able to see it in ourselves because we're in the middle of it. We might watch a kid behave a certain way and that could be that tipping point for us to stop. Now we can go to some of our mechanisms for controlling ourselves and realize that you, as the parent, want manage this relationship better.  My kid actually gave me that opportunity to see myself. My child's reactions allowed me to take my lens off.

Jan: Which then gives room for both of them to have a bit more vulnerability with each other, and then a bit more compassion or empathy. In my world, this ups that bonding when it's done really well which ups the respect enough - the cooperation and the courage - all of those things that we look for in personal growth. In kids, as they grow, in order to make healthy changes, they need that respect from their mom and dad. They need to be able to talk with them, honestly, and freely as they do that they grow in courage. 

Mark:  I love that it gives us. It gives us an opportunity to express those things and set fair expectations.  I think that's one of the things that's so difficult inside of marriage and family relationships is mismatched expectations. And I think kids start with the expectation that my parents never have conflict. Right? And if they do have conflict. Oh my gosh, what's going to happen?? So emotional intelligence gives us a framework for being able to say, "Mom and Dad are frustrated right now or we are experiencing x emotion. And it's okay because here's what we do with that emotion."  You know like dad isn't going to punch a hole in the wall. Dad's frustrated right now and so we're pushing pause.  He's gonna do this, I'm gonna do this, and then this weekend we're gonna set a coffee meeting and actually work through this. And really,  that may be longer than every situation needs.

 That's the big piece of the awareness on both the relationship and the self is just  with identifying emotion. And I think that's a place where, like I mentioned to the workplace. we may like to think that those emotions don't  belong there! Well, if our expectation is that we shouldn't experience frustration with our spouse or our mom or our kids or then we've already led ourselves astray. 

So, the very starting point is practicing communicating your emotions and identifying what they are. And when I say identify emotions, it's beyond the just basic sad, happy anger. I like moving past the 7 main emotions helping people process words like I'm proud. It might not really be on an official emotion scale but that's how I would communicate that I'm satisfied. Exactly something like  - I'm excited, I'm proud I'm frustrated. Really practicing these more complex words while paying attention to the age of the kids so that it is age appropriate. It doesn't have to be as simple as I'm sad. Maybe a child doesn't know how to explain how they're feeling. They don't know how to say the why of how he hurt me. More  likely they are communicating an internal awareness, so helping them communicate makes them more emotionally intelligent.

Jan: I like the part where you say, move away from those seven really big emotions: happy, sad, confused, weak, strong.  Narrow it down to something more specific, because it will help someone understand you better and help them be more empathetic to you. Sad is too big. So it's hard to define.

Mark: We all experience fear very differently and most of the time we can identify what it is. So, that's why I like those.  Figure out what it means to you. Wasn't that mean?  I've seen it with all  the unrest that we've been feeling in the pandemic world, "I feel like I could cry but I don't know why." Okay. That's way better than sad.

Jan: You're exactly right. 

Mark: Now I am more self aware of how I feel, because I've expressed it. But now Jan, if we could model that with our kids and even bigger than that, model it with our spouses too,  we could help the emotions bond together.  So instead of thesaying, "Stop crying or why are you freaking out?? or ``Calm down, (which in the history of that phrase has never actually made anyone calm down), we actually seek understanding. It comes with empathy.

Jan: And it builds a sense of compassion. "Oh I care about you. How could I help? Tell me more about that." Just the listening part is really important because it can help somebody say,  "I don't need to cry but having you care about it settles me down. I feel safer now." It brings the speakers into a more joined space. And that aloneness goes down and often when the aloneness goes down our emotions settle down.

Mark: One of the things that I teach a lot in the corporate space is creating a shared language. This is more complicated in the corporate space than it is inside of your home. But, creating a shared language around is easier with analogies. Oftentimes, we'll use a thermostat. Is it too hot or too cold? So you can get to, "Are we having these happy emotions? I was just at a birthday party for my nieces, and my nephew was just so excited. He was way too hot! He was 80 degrees in a room that should have been 70. Yep, but giving him that analogy to talk through and say, "I just have all these tinglies!!" gives him a way to talk about that. 

Or sometimes we use an analogy of smoke detector. What are the things that are causing it to either go off, you know sirens or little chirps. And sometimes, as you mentioned earlier, those metal chirps can, if we bottle them up long enough, it turns into a full bullhorn siren. It didn't just get there. So, helping kids identify, or even spouses identify what  those little things are, that single I am already on edge - ie - my smoke alarm is already chirping.  Then we know the conversations gonna go, potentially not in the direction we want. But you may have no idea why smoke detectors are chirping. So identifying what makes your smoke detector chip is helpful.  Let's go back to the thermostat idea. I'm a little bit warm right now,  or I'm a little bit cold - I don't feel like sharing. Okay, let's put a pin on that. Let's talk about it over dinner and not push the conversation right now.  The thermostat is reading somewhat high and the smoke detector is chirping.  Pause until we are reset and calm. So those are things -  equipping people with language is kind of the second, and identifying the emotions is first. Creating shared language is kind of the next step that I usually walk people through.

Jan: I like those ideas! Some of those analogies are useful for couples. They may be able to realize, as they listen to each other, when one of them is too hot or cold.  They may be able to communicate,  "I know when you're over hot. You know, you look this way or you walk this way, your eyebrows or your tone give your emotional space away.   I know that whenever you have your PJ pants on you're done. I don't even bother."  The conversation really just brings that into relational awareness.

Mark:  So on the relationship, awareness and then management. I can admit in my relationship, I see my wife and her PJ pants and I know the game's over. I'm blown right through that. and say, "No! We need to talk about this right now!" And then you start poking the bear.  I mean, when we're outside of those emotional spots, we can see that it's really easy to understand that it's a fruitless effort.  But when we're in it, if I want to get my way, we blow right through that.  Sometimes I think about if other people were watching they would be shaking their head at me! Why would you?? At the moment I can't see that or feel that.  If we can equip each other with that language or like you said, "Hey, the pajama pants are a signal. Now is not the time." Then my wife has every right to call me out.  Sometimes I joke because we each have our taboo buzzer. And if you violate one of our rules. You get to buzz it, but yeah, pajama pants are on okay, you're right, this conversation is on pause. We know that anything after pj pants that isn't the healthiest place to step into. Celebration and conflict:  I want to restate that it doesn't always have to be in conflict.  When we make decisions and heightened positive emotions there's also the potential that we're not  necessarily thinking as rationally as we'd like.

Jan: So switch this up just a little bit. I'm thinking about one of the spouses or partners being very self aware and has lots of emotional language, lots of emotions and likes to talk about them -  in some sense the other spouse would say ad nauseum.  In my world the other spouse has shut down. But the partner would say, "Oh no.. no I didn't shut down. I'm just not going to share because I'm going to get flooded by how my other spouse is going to react!" How do you get the spouses to become a little bit more balanced?

Mark: That's a great question. We've probably all had that on one side or the other, we've all been on either side of that spectrum.  I like finding each end of the spectrum and then what's the ideal middle ground. It's probably unfair to ask or expect the person who loves to talk about emotions and share their feelings and tell them to shut that off, 100%. That's not true to their identity. And then on the other side the person who doesn't need to wear their emotions on their sleeves, doesn't need to come home from work and tell you how they're feeling or everything. It would probably be unfair to ask them to give you a 30 slide presentation on their day. So let's agree that we're on each end of the spectrum. What is that? This brings that thermostat perspective back in. Let's say 70 is ideal.  Anywhere between 68 and 72 is within adequate range. So, in this instance like, you know, as a spouse, it is part of your duty to sit and listen. Duty may be too strong but that comes with the marriage/relationship territory  to sit down, listen to somebody share their emotions. But if you go on for three hours, understanding them on the other side of the spectrum, you're outside of that preferred range. And then we can take into account some of the other things like you mentioned: Is it late at night? Is it over dinner? What are your ideal connection times? So I think you have to kind of set what a healthy range looks like for you and your spouse or kiddo.  That looks different for every couple and kiddo. The more time we spend looking at why can't you be more like x couple, we've got mismatched expectations again showing up 

So, part of that is kind of setting it within our own selves, and then a really healthy habit is creating rules of engagement. So, using the pajama pants as an example: If the rule of engagement is no serious conversation after 10pm then we know everything goes in the wrong direction. There's a rule we can engage. If we say, "You know that I'm somebody who needs to share everything first, and then we can start to unpack it." Now I'm better able to receive that mind dump or emotion dump. And then I can navigate it better. Most of the time though we're setting those rules on the fly, in the middle of emotional struggle.  We think we don't need them until we're in the emotional struggle. So I like to help couples look outside of these things. Now we're sitting in a neutral room where everything's calm. Let's get a good list going. And then you can go live the list, you can push that taboo buzzer when you need to, you can hold each other accountable. And you're continuing to stay within that 68 to 72 ideal temperature.

Jan: That's  the emotionally available, talkative spouse. What do you say to the person who says, "I'm sure I have emotions. I have no idea what they are."  How does somebody become more emotionally aware?  They're willing but they're like, "I don't really know how I do this."

Mark:  I think that goes back to the practice of identifying and communicating those emotions. Trying to put them in your own words. Emotional intelligence is a skill we don't necessarily come pre-stocked with. According to some of the experts who have studied this say it's like a muscle that we can strengthen. We may have to work at it but we can get. Yes, some people are more naturally empathetic but that doesn't mean that they can excuse themselves from learning by claiming that they're just not emotional or don't do emotions well. 

These emotions are required things inside of a relationship. So, yes.  Having emotional intelligence and using it is crucial to a relationship. it's not like well that's what I'm going to throw out and don't need. You can't bake a cake without sugar. Right?  Same with a relationship you cannot have ultimately healthy relationships devoid of emotion. If you struggle to communicate it. The first step is practice. Yep, try to use some of the emotion words. If you are the person who is more comfortable in your emotions in a relationship, I would recommend asking more questions to draw that person out. The goal would be working towards that ideal space again on that spectrum.  Zero emotion or closed off emotion, just doesn't lead to emotional health when we're in a relationship. Sure, I'd prefer to never talk about them ever. That just doesn't work well inside of a relationship.  So practice saying them, try to develop words around them.  My sad might not equal your sad so what does your sad really mean?  Disappointed? 

Jan:  I think some time, for me, as I watch couples where one of them is more emotionally quiet or withdrawn, that being aware and paying more attention to their body language, and what their body is sensing more quickly will help them. They will notice that they get a headache, whether clenching their teeth, or they're wiggling their foot or they just want to get up and leave. But they don't know what emotion goes with that. And so then sometimes I might say, go on the internet and search for emotional words. Or in my office I might have a handout that I would say here are about 80 different emotions. Now, go emotion shopping.  Notice when you begin to say,  "Oh maybe I know this one!"  Sit with your Google dictionary and just start to define different words, so that now you have a choice. For the people that are thinking, "You know, I don't know anything besides the word MAD. Yeah, that's my only emotion: mad." And I would be thinking that there are probably 14 other emotions underneath there. 

Mark:   I love that word "choice".  I'm a big Viktor Frankl fan. Anything I can consume from him has been life changing for me. And Isort of map out a lot of what he has done in his work on Goldman's work around emotional intelligence. He has a quote that I think it's really powerful that matches that choice concept. He says that between stimulus and response, there is space. So that's a choice.  Anytime there's that moment of space. He then says in that space is the power to choose our response, which is the me that's emotional intelligence.  I feel. Now there's less space for me to choose.  Yet, In that space is our choice. But he said it's the way that we respond which is our growth, and freedom. So I love that because when you say you've got somebody who's trying to either say, "No I don't know emotional understanding. I don't need them", there is growth and freedom in this. When we get better at this, your relationships improve.  Most people wouldn't say, "Well I don't want to grow or I want less freedom." That's the power in that Frankl quote for me is, okay - so do you want to get better in relationships? Do you want to be a better wife or husband? You want to be better. But like you said, the problem is, I don't know how, I have never been taught, or it's just difficult for me, which it is. 

This stuff is complicated if you're not naturally good at it. If I can't shoot a basketball I would probably hire a basketball coach. And that's why you and I do what we do. Somebody is struggling with managing their emotions. It's a complicated thing to do on your own and between two people who are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Insert third party ie: therapist who can help you to process these things out. You naturally start getting the results at the free throw line that you desired when you hired your basketball coach.   I think we just all kind of have that expectation that we could outsmart this and figure it out on our own. In so many other parts of our lives, it's natural for us to have accountability groups, coaches, support systems, and yet inside of our marriage or inside of our family we're supposed to have this all figured out.

Jan: . You know, I didn't learn how to shoot a basketball until I was 12. And so now when I have a basketball in my hand and when I was younger, maybe more when I was younger than now... I would just freak out. I have no idea what to do with the basketball. I can't shoot it. I can't bounce it.I can't do anything with it. But sometimes I think that's like some people with emotions, they just freak out. I have emotions. I freak out. I don't know what to do with them. So I dropped the ball and I want to leave the court. I don't want to have the ball so you can have it. I'm out!  And so, I like what you're saying here in terms of reminding people that they would be more free. If I knew how to play basketball better I would be able to play with more people.  I have little grandkids all over. They're bouncing that ball and I can play it about their stage but I can tell you in two years I'm probably just cheering. and not doing much else. Or I have to up my game, and prep. And this may be true for parenting. Is that just like I will have to learn how to bounce a basketball in order to stay connected with my grandkids, they will learn how to grow in their emotions and understand them so they can stay connected to their kids. That's some of what you're saying right, the more skills the adult has, the more they can connect with, and be in good relationships with the people around them.

Mark:  And with basketball, it's pretty clearly defined what some of the skill set you need is. It's less clearly defined when it comes to emotions or inside marriage.  And,  if we're not good at basketball, it's really either I quit or I get a coach. And, unfortunately, we don't really have that choice in our relationships. So, it's one of those things that we can learn. We know there's certain metrics to emotional health and relationship health. If we're weak in one of those areas, we do have to practice it. You may have to be in the NBA, ever. But you can at least get to a spot where you shoot, and make one more basket than I made in the first year of marriage than in the fifth year of marriage. So now I can say, I can identify when I'm clenching my teeth that I'm disappointed, I'm frustrated, I'm angry, versus just ignoring that thing.

Jan: We're about out of time for the amount of energy that my parents have in listening to things so is there anything else that you'd like to underscore to make sure people are grasping with regard to emotional intelligence?

 

Mark: Yeah, my parting thoughts would be to start with the mindset that this is something you can change and grow. I love that Viktor Frankl says it's growth and freedom. So engage this. Emotions are an important part of our relationships. And then in order to do that I would say three things. 

1: practice communicating, identifying and communicating. So if it helps, like Jan mentioned, use a sheet of emotions, write them down, get more comfortable telling the people around you what they are. 

2:  Also look for those cues in your kids and your spouse, seek understanding, realize that your emotions don't work the same as everybody around you. So, pick up on those habits. If I'm grinding my teeth that doesn't necessarily mean I'm wrong and I shouldn't feel that emotion. I should explore the emotion. Not reject it with "why are you doing that again??" Instead gently say, "You know, Jan.  I noticed you're grinding your teeth, what's going on?" Oh that's much kinder,

3. And then the third thing would be discussing some of these guidelines.  I think if you could do anything in the coming week schedule like a coffee meeting or something, either as a family or at least with the spousal relationship and write down some guidelines. 

The way I like to think about that is one, if these things are present, our conversation will go better or on the other side of that call, these things are present, it will go worse. So back to your point about the pajama pants. Pajama pants are on = our conversations probably going to go worse because we assume that the 11pm is too late!  You could do yourself a ton of favors by getting the guidelines. And then you can better engage around the emotions as you go. So those are kind of the three things that I would hope somebody would take away from our conversation around emotional intelligence.

Jan:  So Mark as we wrap this up. You have given some really, really good hints and my listeners are driving in their cars or making supper. And so their question is, "Wait, how am I going to remember that stuff??" And you're going to give us a little printable??

Mark: Absolutely. We will have a couple of these things broken down for you, and opportunities to evaluate yourself, evaluate others and give you a chance to have this conversation. I love coffee conversation. I'm a big coffee fan. For us, that's one of our guidelines.  If coffees' in front of us, our conversations go better. So this will help guide those conversations. Practice some of this stuff so that you can get better and you can even track as you go. 

Jan: Wonderful. Thank you! Really appreciate your input, your knowledge, and the way that you framed things in terms of some of those word pictures about the temperature and smoke detectors. I've had a smoke detector go off in my house and it creates some anxiety. So thank you so much for sharing those and for the great great ideas. We really appreciate your time and energy. 

Mark: Thanks for having me. This was fun. 

Jan: Thank you for joining Mark and I! We are glad you listened and we want to just invite you to continue to process these things. Mark has a really good printable up that you can download and can take advantage of having the access right at your fingertips to continue to incorporate and grow your emotional intelligence, as well as the emotional intelligence in your relationships, and in your kiddos. 

We also talk about emotional intelligence, when we work with the DNA for Fun Communications Course. The module about Managing the Emotional Me does focus on knowing our emotions and how to use them in a way that benefits our personal growth, and our relationships. Be sure to check out the Us and Kids website, or Marks website, The Meaningful Marriage for more marriage help and support.

 Cheering for you all. Thanks again. Bye bye.